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Biggest difference in Saban & Gus System...

  • jctyde

    Besides the obvious x's and o's, spread vs. pro style, HUNH vs. ball control, etc.

    1. Saban's system requires ELITE talent at OL, RB, CB, S, LB and NT. Elite talent as in NFL 1st-2nd round talent. That is 15 players out of 22. Basically if Bama does not recruit top 3 classes on yearly basis and stockpile talent at those key positions you can't impose your will on the opposition.

    2. Malzahn's system does not require ELITE talent at all. It requires an experienced OL, good but not great RB's and a great athlete at QB that doesn't have to be a good passer at all. He has also proven he can win 11 games and the SEC with a very subpar, inferior defense.

    Bottom line: Recruiting elite talent is not a pre-requisite at Auburn whereas it is at Alabama. The scary part is that IF Auburn does attain elite talent on the OL, RB and QB (Only 7 positions) they can be extremely dangerous without needing any help from its defense. The combo of the scheme and tempo with flawless execution on offense and elite talent at QB, RB and OL is all he needs to be a title contender.

    **This does not include the debate over Saban's defensive philosophy against HUNH teams which is another topic all together.

    This post was edited by jctyde 3 months ago

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  • By recruiting rankings AU has tons of talent. With their location and conference they will always recruit above average to really good. Just gotta beat them and keep working hard to stay on top.

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  • Malzahns offense has been in college football for 7 or 8 years now. although its been pretty successful, it hasn't been as dominant as people make it out to be. People act as if this is his first year on the scene and because his offense is so awesome they'll never lose again. Each season is different. A few lucky breaks go the other way next year and everyone is wondering what happened to the great Gus Malzahn. The good news for us is that we do infact sign top 3 classes every year.

  • zigzag

    jctyde said... (original post)

    Besides the obvious x's and o's, spread vs. pro style, HUNH vs. ball control, etc...

    1. Saban's system requires ELITE talent...

    2. Malzahn's system does not require ELITE talent at all...

    Your theory is upside down.

    FYI, Auburn's starting RB came in 6th place for the Heisman Trophy. If their QB didn't have questionable character, he'd have been in the running for it, too. In my opinion, He was the best athlete on the field in the 2013 AL v AU game.

    Their OL performance was MUCH better than ours in that game, regardless of their respective "on paper" assessments. As much as I don't like it, Auburn has adequate talent where it matters and they play like a team who's used to competing for championships. hth

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  • scottchap

    jctyde said... (original post)

    Besides the obvious x's and o's, spread vs. pro style, HUNH vs. ball control, etc.

    1. Saban's system requires ELITE talent at OL, RB, CB, S, LB and NT. Elite talent as in NFL 1st-2nd round talent. That is 15 players out of 22. Basically if Bama does not recruit top 3 classes on yearly basis and stockpile talent at those key positions you can't impose your will on the opposition.

    2. Malzahn's system does not require ELITE talent at all. It requires an experienced OL, good but not great RB's and a great athlete at QB that doesn't have to be a good passer at all. He has also proven he can win 11 games and the SEC with a very subpar, inferior defense.

    Bottom line: Recruiting elite talent is not a pre-requisite at Auburn whereas it is at Alabama. The scary part is that IF Auburn does attain elite talent on the OL, RB and QB (Only 7 positions) they can be extremely dangerous without needing any help from its defense. The combo of the scheme and tempo with flawless execution on offense and elite talent at QB, RB and OL is all he needs to be a title contender.

    **This does not include the debate over Saban's defensive philosophy against HUNH teams which is another topic all together.

    Auburns line is filled with elite talent. Nearly every guy was a 4 or 5 star and had experience coming in to the season.

    The biggest difference was Auburns guys were atheltic and physically able to do what was needed and our line, this season, wasn't what we have seen in the past. We broke in several new guys and the new guys weren't physically able to perform the pulls and screens that our offense requires in order to be successfull. In contrast Auburns line was excellent at those things.

    This post was edited by scottchap 3 months ago

  • jctyde

    zigzag said... (original post)

    Your theory is upside down.

    FYI, Auburn's starting RB came in 6th place for the Heisman Trophy. If their QB didn't have questionable character, he'd have been in the running for it, too. In my opinion, He was the best athlete on the field in the 2013 AL v AU game.

    I would argue that their 6th place Heisman RB is the beneficiary of a system that runs the ball 95% of the time and he is the primary ball carrier behind an NFL Fullback and above average SEC OL. He's an above average RB no doubt but "The System" aids his stats much like Baylor's system aids their QB's stats.

    AU's QB was a recycled ex-UGA DB. Great Athlete that has 1 skill/talent.....Speed.

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  • zigzag said... (original post)

    Your theory is upside down.

    FYI, Auburn's starting RB came in 6th place for the Heisman Trophy. If their QB didn't have questionable character, he'd have been in the running for it, too. In my opinion, He was the best athlete on the field in the 2013 AL v AU game.

    Their OL performance was MUCH better than ours in that game, regardless of their respective "on paper" assessments. As much as I don't like it, Auburn has adequate talent where it matters and they play like a team who's used to competing for championships. hth

    Marshall is an athlete that wouldn't play QB at many other schools.

    They don't have a RB who would touch the field for us, same goes for WR and probably TE.

    Prosch would see time as an HB.

    On the O-Line, from what I've seen this year, they're better at left tackle, left guard and center.

    Along the defensive line they have some good players and some guys that would crack our rotation, but that is about it.

    At linebacker I don't think they have anyone who would touch the field for us.

    At corner the guys they put on the field looked about as bad as ours, but their guys were seniors

    At safety, come one, its not even close, although I would love to have Robenson Therezie on our roster, the guy was a beast this year.

    Make no mistake, Malzahn is one of the best and brightest in the business, I'll be shocked if they lose more than three games any year he is there coach. IMO, he is the offensive Saban.

    BCS title game: The Book of Malzahn - ESPN

    Just seven years removed from coaching high school football in Northwest Arkansas, how has Auburn coach Gus Malzahn outsmarted so many of his more experienced peers?

    http://espn.go.com/college-football/bowls13/story/_/id/10231905/book-malzahn
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  • jctyde said... (original post)

    Besides the obvious x's and o's, spread vs. pro style, HUNH vs. ball control, etc.

    1. Saban's system requires ELITE talent at OL, RB, CB, S, LB and NT. Elite talent as in NFL 1st-2nd round talent. That is 15 players out of 22. Basically if Bama does not recruit top 3 classes on yearly basis and stockpile talent at those key positions you can't impose your will on the opposition.

    2. Malzahn's system does not require ELITE talent at all. It requires an experienced OL, good but not great RB's and a great athlete at QB that doesn't have to be a good passer at all. He has also proven he can win 11 games and the SEC with a very subpar, inferior defense.

    Bottom line: Recruiting elite talent is not a pre-requisite at Auburn whereas it is at Alabama. The scary part is that IF Auburn does attain elite talent on the OL, RB and QB (Only 7 positions) they can be extremely dangerous without needing any help from its defense. The combo of the scheme and tempo with flawless execution on offense and elite talent at QB, RB and OL is all he needs to be a title contender.

    **This does not include the debate over Saban's defensive philosophy against HUNH teams which is another topic all together.

    You are spot on.. +1 to ya.. I see you got downvoted for speaking the truth..

    This post was edited by RollTideGKT 3 months ago

  • The wheels were already coming off before auburn and Oklahoma. We tried every way possible to lose to mississippi state. We just haven't had the focus and execution that this team usually has since the LSU game. I'm not sure why, but it's very evident.

  • TideJoe said... (original post)

    The wheels were already coming off before auburn and Oklahoma. We tried every way possible to lose to mississippi state. We just haven't had the focus and execution that this team usually has since the LSU game. I'm not sure why, but it's very evident.

    agreed, no fire or consistancy this year

  • Just like quick pitching in baseball, the HUNH makes the opponent play before they're ready to play. It does give an edge to his offense, but I'm not going to start freaking out until I see a HUNH team with a great defense. I think they are mutually exclusive.

    All that said, it ain't the X's and O's, it's the Jimmy's and Joe's.

  • jdisom

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  • I saw it all along that the defense was not elite. We were not elite at NT, LB (other than CJ) and CB. When you cant get a push and tackle on the perimeter against an offense like that you are SCREWED. I actually thought the D played great against the aubs. When an offense runs the ball 52 times a game, they will accumulate some yards. I agree that when Gus gets a few recruiting classes in there that its going to produce some points, but we will be fine. Sorry to get a little off topic.

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  • ce1976

    jctyde said... (original post)

    Besides the obvious x's and o's, spread vs. pro style, HUNH vs. ball control, etc.

    1. Saban's system requires ELITE talent at OL, RB, CB, S, LB and NT. Elite talent as in NFL 1st-2nd round talent. That is 15 players out of 22. Basically if Bama does not recruit top 3 classes on yearly basis and stockpile talent at those key positions you can't impose your will on the opposition.

    2. Malzahn's system does not require ELITE talent at all. It requires an experienced OL, good but not great RB's and a great athlete at QB that doesn't have to be a good passer at all. He has also proven he can win 11 games and the SEC with a very subpar, inferior defense.

    Bottom line: Recruiting elite talent is not a pre-requisite at Auburn whereas it is at Alabama. The scary part is that IF Auburn does attain elite talent on the OL, RB and QB (Only 7 positions) they can be extremely dangerous without needing any help from its defense. The combo of the scheme and tempo with flawless execution on offense and elite talent at QB, RB and OL is all he needs to be a title contender.

    **This does not include the debate over Saban's defensive philosophy against HUNH teams which is another topic all together.

    The hunh was designed to minimize talent deferential by speeding up the game so you can not make this argument without talking about the difference in philosophy. It doesn't make sense without it.

    We didn't have elite talent at those positions in 2008 but it didn't matter because everyone wasn't running the current version of the spread. When we did run into in the Sugar Bowl, guess what happened? We got beat much the same way that Oklahoma best us.

    If you don't think that Tre Mason and their offensive line has elite talent on it, I don't know what to tell you. He rushed for 1000 last year when they won 3 games and the team sucked. We are also talking about scheme as well. Nick Marshall is not an elite QB but he is an elite level athlete. He doesn't ask him to do more than what's required.

    Concerning defense, do you see anyone consistently stopping the HUNH? Stanford and LSU do it but that's about it. Teams all across the country are winning with it. You don't have to have an elite QB anymore to run it. That's why it is popular. To single out Alabama means you are attempting to control the data to help your argument. However, this isn't happening in a vacuum. This HUNH crap has infected football. It has changed to defense and strategy to game planning to hold teams to field goals rather than force three and outs. Gus will never have an elite defense at auburn. Doesn't mean he won't need in the coming years to remain competitive.

    Elite talent is not required to be competitive but it is required to win championships. auburn has it right now at QB, RB, and the offensive line. Marshall is an elite level athlete doing what he is asked to do. He is not an elite QB but the offensive doesn't require it. Tre Mason just put up his second consecutive 1000 yard season behind the exact same line. You are not calling it elite because it hurts your argument. However, by any objective measure, it is.

    Even with all of that, it took a miracle to beat Alabama. When Alabama plays it's best, regardless of your scheme, your aren't besting Alabama. But when Alabama turns the ball over and gives up stupid penalties, we lose. But then again, that pretty much can be said for all teams.

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  • ce1976 said... (original post)

    The hunh was designed to minimize talent deferential by speeding up the game so you can not make this argument without talking about the difference in philosophy. It doesn't make sense without it.

    We didn't have elite talent at those positions in 2008 but it didn't matter because everyone wasn't running the current version of the spread. When we did run into in the Sugar Bowl, guess what happened? We got beat much the same way that Oklahoma best us.

    If you don't think that Tre Mason and their offensive line has elite talent on it, I don't know what to tell you. He rushed for 1000 last year when they won 3 games and the team sucked. We are also talking about scheme as well. Nick Marshall is not an elite QB but he is an elite level athlete. He doesn't ask him to do more than what's required.

    Concerning defense, do you see anyone consistently stopping the HUNH? Stanford and LSU do it but that's about it. Teams all across the country are winning with it. You don't have to have an elite QB anymore to run it. That's why it is popular. To single out Alabama means you are attempting to control the data to help your argument. However, this isn't happening in a vacuum. This HUNH crap has infected football. It has changed to defense and strategy to game planning to hold teams to field goals rather than force three and outs. Gus will never have an elite defense at auburn. Doesn't mean he won't need in the coming years to remain competitive.

    Elite talent is not required to be competitive but it is required to win championships. auburn has it right now at QB, RB, and the offensive line. Marshall is an elite level athlete doing what he is asked to do. He is not an elite QB but the offensive doesn't require it. Tre Mason just put up his second consecutive 1000 yard season behind the exact same line. You are not calling it elite because it hurts your argument. However, by any objective measure, it is.

    Even with all of that, it took a miracle to beat Alabama. When Alabama plays it's best, regardless of your scheme, your aren't besting Alabama. But when Alabama turns the ball over and gives up stupid penalties, we lose. But then again, that pretty much can be said for all teams.

    Spot on in every way. Also, Marshall will never play QB beyond the college level. If he goes to the NFL it will be as a Randall Cobb type player.

  • I said 2 years ago when we had the best defense that the trend in college football is higher scoring.Look at these high scoring bowl games.We are going to have to outscore other teams instead of relying on the defense to shut other offenses down to win games.The Auburn/Missouri game is a good example.Malzahn just keep scoring when Mizzou was not going away.Just keep scoring.We have the whole offseason to work on it but we never know until we play West Virginia if we have improve the defense or not.Teams are going to use the formula that AU and Oklahoma used against us.We have to go w/the changing of the time.

  • jctyde said... (original post)

    Besides the obvious x's and o's, spread vs. pro style, HUNH vs. ball control, etc.

    1. Saban's system requires ELITE talent at OL, RB, CB, S, LB and NT. Elite talent as in NFL 1st-2nd round talent. That is 15 players out of 22. Basically if Bama does not recruit top 3 classes on yearly basis and stockpile talent at those key positions you can't impose your will on the opposition.

    2. Malzahn's system does not require ELITE talent at all. It requires an experienced OL, good but not great RB's and a great athlete at QB that doesn't have to be a good passer at all. He has also proven he can win 11 games and the SEC with a very subpar, inferior defense.

    Bottom line: Recruiting elite talent is not a pre-requisite at Auburn whereas it is at Alabama. The scary part is that IF Auburn does attain elite talent on the OL, RB and QB (Only 7 positions) they can be extremely dangerous without needing any help from its defense. The combo of the scheme and tempo with flawless execution on offense and elite talent at QB, RB and OL is all he needs to be a title contender.

    **This does not include the debate over Saban's defensive philosophy against HUNH teams which is another topic all together.

    Not sure I agree with this. I think it does take elite talent.

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  • ce1976

    hines011 said... (original post)

    Marshall is an athlete that wouldn't play QB at many other schools.

    They don't have a RB who would touch the field for us, same goes for WR and probably TE.

    Prosch would see time as an HB.

    On the O-Line, from what I've seen this year, they're better at left tackle, left guard and center.

    Along the defensive line they have some good players and some guys that would crack our rotation, but that is about it.

    At linebacker I don't think they have anyone who would touch the field for us.

    At corner the guys they put on the field looked about as bad as ours, but their guys were seniors

    At safety, come one, its not even close, although I would love to have Robenson Therezie on our roster, the guy was a beast this year.

    Make no mistake, Malzahn is one of the best and brightest in the business, I'll be shocked if they lose more than three games any year he is there coach. IMO, he is the offensive Saban.

    You can not have this discussion without taking into account differences in schemes and philosophies. For example, would AJ play QB at auburn or any other school whose offense is based around the zone read? Since he wouldn't, does that mean that he sucks? Not at all but for us if a guy couldn't play for Alabama it means that he is terrible or for the sake of this discussion, not elite.

    They also have a different scheme on defense as well. So, some of our guys wouldn't see the field at auburn, especially on the defensive line. Doesn't mean they are not very good. It only means that they fit a different scheme.

    I agree with you about Malzhan. However, someone will figure you out. It always happens. My guess is auburn will take a step back next year without Greg Robinson, the bigot they have at center if he leaves early, and Jay Prosch. He will have to make adjustments because auburn will be the hunted next year and adjustments will be made to deal with his offense. We will begin to find out next year if he can actually build a program.

  • Great post. Too many people discount AU's offensive line play. Bottom line to me is that running the football covers up a lot of deficiencies, particularly as they pertain to AU's defense. Running the football is like good pitching in baseball. Very rarely takes a day off. Too many people on this board losing their minds over these last two games.

  • jctyde said... (original post)

    Besides the obvious x's and o's, spread vs. pro style, HUNH vs. ball control, etc.

    1. Saban's system requires ELITE talent at OL, RB, CB, S, LB and NT. Elite talent as in NFL 1st-2nd round talent. That is 15 players out of 22. Basically if Bama does not recruit top 3 classes on yearly basis and stockpile talent at those key positions you can't impose your will on the opposition.

    2. Malzahn's system does not require ELITE talent at all. It requires an experienced OL, good but not great RB's and a great athlete at QB that doesn't have to be a good passer at all. He has also proven he can win 11 games and the SEC with a very subpar, inferior defense.

    Bottom line: Recruiting elite talent is not a pre-requisite at Auburn whereas it is at Alabama. The scary part is that IF Auburn does attain elite talent on the OL, RB and QB (Only 7 positions) they can be extremely dangerous without needing any help from its defense. The combo of the scheme and tempo with flawless execution on offense and elite talent at QB, RB and OL is all he needs to be a title contender.

    **This does not include the debate over Saban's defensive philosophy against HUNH teams which is another topic all together.

    Mt Cody was a 3 star. Javier Arenas was a 3 star. Chance Warmack was a 3 star. Not sure where you are coming up with all this but that is not true. Coach Saban doesn't pay attention to "stars" by a player's name. He actually attends HS track meets (or he did) and he has a certain type player he looks for in each position. It has nothing to do with being elite. Yes, you would LOVE to get all the elite players but he has taken 3 star players and turned them into 5 star players so I believe that disproves your theory.