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***Thoughts on Dee Milliner ....

  • I tend to think Kareem Jackson was a value pick late first round. Took him a few years but he's a great tackler with decent speed. Arenas too. Seems CB is now more about keeping the WR short of the sticks on 3rd down. Good post here TR.

    BamaSpree

  • IBELIEVE85 said...

    Well I guess every NFL coach, scout, and executive doesn't know WTF there doing. Don't draft CBs, there meaningless! Teams like the 49ers show what you can do with defense in the NFL, it's not like just because it's a passing league their going to give up on defense.

    We're u watching the NFL this year? The 49ers secondary got ate up.

    signature image signature image signature image

    Colebone2000

  • Wow. The point was missed by most. I still think that elite corners have high value but it is hard to argue with the point that Travis is making. The combination of the rules on pass coverage in NFL, the size of the freak athletes playing WR and TE in NFL, and the fact that the elite QBs only need a very small window to throw the ball makes playing DB the most difficult position in NFL. There is no doubt it devalues the position some. Watch the NFL. All defenses allow you to move the ball to 30 yard line with ease with hopes of making a play as the field gets more compact. It can be frustrating to watch after watching Alabama because we dont give up anything easy. However, it is the reality of the pro game.

    hytboy12

  • i can remember less than a decade ago the nfl was desperately looking for ways to get scoring up and running backs still had a significant place in the game

    signature image signature image signature image

    rolBAMAballs

  • Travis Reier said...

    Got no problem with differing opinions. Semi-expected that this might draw some negative responses. That's cool; made for good discussion for the majority of this thread. Problem is, a few read a sentence or two and have no real clue what the opinion being offered is (other than it doesn't say a UA player should go No. 1 overall). Takes all kinds, I guess.

    TR

    Come on Travis you should know by now that if you don't post overally positive info about BAMA, then you get trashed on this board. I've said it before and thinks it's accurate....Bama has the most sensitive fan base in the country. Watch what happens when some media person makes a comment about Bama...good or bad. I mean we had fans calling up Lunginbil on the radio a few years ago telling him to "burn in hell" for putting Bama #3 in team rankings and not #1 and to this day people call him a "Barner" when he actually talks as positive about Bama as anyone.

    What many Bama fans lack is objectivity. The closer you are to a situation the less objectivity you have...this applies to all aspects of life. Travis,if you would have come on here and said ****"Dee Miliner is the best corner back in the draft in the past 50 years and will instantly be a the best corner in the league." You would have gotten 250 up votes and mostly "you're exactly right Travis, great point, completely agree...." Now take the exact same player and put him on awbarn's team. Same player that most everyone agreed was already one of the best of all time and now he plays for our arch rival and you said "this guy shouldn't get drafted, he's over rated, not even a sec corner much less NFL" then you would have received the exact same reaction about the exact same player..."250 up votes and mostly "you're exactly right Travis, great point, completely agree...."

    tide10

  • If ever there was a thread that displayed how ridiculous and meaningless the voting thing is, this is it. What is the point, really?
    This is a board for discussion, you will never have a discussion where there is agreement on both sides and hence the discussion...if we all agreed with each other it would be no fun. If you are going to be negative or critical in your opinion, back it up with why and be as factual as possible as this lends itself to objective arguments without all this childish up toe/down vote crap that occurs when somebody gets their feelings hurt.

    signature image signature image signature image

    "You don't always get what you want, but you always get what you deserve"

    BAMAMANAGER

  • Rules do favor offense, but I still think every team needs one good CB. I thought it was interesting that Dee compared himself to Champ Bailey during his combine interview. I definitely see the resemblance. Champ struggled like most CB's when first to the league and now has a HOF resume. I see Dee being the same long term prospect.

    In regards of positional value, great CB's are rare IMO. Same with truly great WR's. Donte Stallworths, Devery Henderson's, and the entire 49's CB secondary are really a dime a dozen in regards to pure talent and easy to find. I think in today's NFL it goes:
    Quarterback
    Pass Rush (Regardless of position DE, OLB, etc.)
    Protect the QB from the edge (Tackles)
    Defend the Pass (CB's, LB's who can cover)
    Defend the Run (DT's)
    Skill Players (WR/RB) - unless exceptional like Julio/Trent
    Interior OL - NFL QB's get rid of the ball fast; only for true running teams like Pittsburg may rate higher (eg. DeCastro pick in draft)

    Bamaducks ●

  • Wake up people! This isn't the NFL of even 10yrs. ago. The athletes are bigger & more freakish. & the rules are to help teams score points. So the owners keep putting asses in the seats. Do you think a coach like Chip Kelly would've been a coveted NFL coach in the old NFL? Hell no! & now you got coaching greats from all over the NFL. Bringing guys like him in to speed up their offense. It seems like the best defense is a good offense more & more these days. & that is taking place on all levels of football.

    New Member of The 247 Crew!

    1tide

  • BAMAMANAGER said...

    If ever there was a thread that displayed how ridiculous and meaningless the voting thing is, this is it. What is the point, really?
    This is a board for discussion, you will never have a discussion where there is agreement on both sides and hence the discussion...if we all agreed with each other it would be no fun. If you are going to be negative or critical in your opinion, back it up with why and be as factual as possible as this lends itself to objective arguments without all this childish up toe/down vote crap that occurs when somebody gets their feelings hurt.

    Couldn't agree more.

    tide10

  • Bamaducks said...

    Rules do favor offense, but I still think every team needs one good CB. I thought it was interesting that Dee compared himself to Champ Bailey during his combine interview. I definitely see the resemblance. Champ struggled like most CB's when first to the league and now has a HOF resume. I see Dee being the same long term prospect.

    In regards of positional value, great CB's are rare IMO. Same with truly great WR's. Donte Stallworths, Devery Henderson's, and the entire 49's CB secondary are really a dime a dozen in regards to pure talent and easy to find. I think in today's NFL it goes: Quarterback Pass Rush (Regardless of position DE, OLB, etc.) Protect the QB from the edge (Tackles) Defend the Pass (CB's, LB's who can cover) Defend the Run (DT's) Skill Players (WR/RB) - unless exceptional like Julio/Trent Interior OL - NFL QB's get rid of the ball fast; only for true running teams like Pittsburg may rate higher (eg. DeCastro pick in draft)

    Good stuff and I agree for the most part. Because of what the NFL has become, I do think WRs are separating themselves from RBs in terms of value and are already ahead of DTs. Don't get me wrong, though, I'd take Peterson over any WR out there.

    TR

    Travis Reier ●

  • Also you wanna know why rookie qb's look better & better these days? Being an elite at the position is only part of it. If these same qb's played under the same rules of the old NFL. They wouldn't be having as good of seasons. Any one remember Peyton Manning's rookie numbers? Also people said Cam would look awful as a rookie in the NFL. Well not when he has rules in place that help him play the position much easier these days. Combined with freakish athletic ability. Same with RG3. Much easier for a rookie to come in & put up solid numbers as a qb in the NFL these days.

    New Member of The 247 Crew!

    1tide

  • 1tide said...

    Also you wanna know why rookie qb's look better & better these days? Being an elite at the position is only part of it. If these same qb's played under the same rules of the old NFL. They wouldn't be having as good of seasons. Any one remember Peyton Manning's rookie numbers? Also people said Cam would look awful as a rookie in the NFL. Well not when he has rules in place that help him play the position much easier these days. Combined with freakish athletic ability. Same with RG3. Much easier for a rookie to come in & put up solid numbers as a qb in the NFL these days.

    I get a kick out of NFL announcers talking about the "tight window" quarterbacks have to fit the ball into. While it used to be true, the window is now the width of a sliding glass door (and getting wider). It's all about red zone defense. The end line is a defense's best friend.

    TR

    Travis Reier ●

  • Exactly...the qb has more room for error now as well imo. Which means when these guys come outta college. They can use the "gun slinger" approach while learning on the job.

    New Member of The 247 Crew!

    1tide

  • Travis Reier said...

    Understand, my thoughts are more about the direction the league has and will continue to take and not Milliner's ability. The NFL has pretty much rendered corners defenseless.

    TR

    Agree, if they breathe too hard on a WR it's a flag. Direction I'd take with defense is find a few CJ Mosely's to cover TE's and slot WR's from the LB position.

    Nomad36

  • Bama_Lefty said...

    Maybe a mod getting unnecessarily DV'ed will serve to prove how silly a system it is

    Yep downvotes and upvotes are most pointless thing on this site. To get upvoted just come on and say you have inside info we are getting a big recruit or auburn is getting looked into by NCAA. To get downvoted say something that is not completely pro bama

    signature image

    bamabullyz ●

  • Travis Reier said...

    I get a kick out of NFL announcers talking about the "tight window" quarterbacks have to fit the ball into. While it used to be true, the window is now the width of a sliding glass door (and getting wider). It's all about red zone defense. The end line is a defense's best friend.

    TR

    FWIW I agree with your logic but I think that I disagree with the OP because I think that this would been of those "exception" the years.

    The reason is that, by most accounts, this is a down year for top end QB & WR talent, so if I were a team that had a much bigger need at CB than at either tackle or DE, I'd have to take a really long look at the extremely physical, 6'1" 200+ lb guy, who just ran in the neighborhood of a 4.3 40 & has been coached up by the Alabama coaching staff over the last 3 years, while proving capable of being able to excel at almost everything he's been asked to do during that stretch of time, especially when there is no clear cut number 2 guy in this year's draft class.

    I agree that DB's have been neutralized, to a large extent, which obviously increases the risk of drafting one in the top 10 in most years. But when you see what the elite handful of lockdown CB's provide for a defense, it's hard to argue that the reward isn't equally as high if you land a guy withh kind of potential & he develops into just that.

    All you have to do is look at the first half of the Patriots/Ravens AFC Championship Game, when both of the NE starting CB's were on the field, compared to the 2nd half when they weren't, to realize that there is still plenty of value in having solid CB's.

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    Follow me on Twitter @NickCadden

    RollBamaRoll

  • RollBamaRoll said...

    FWIW I agree with your logic but I think that I disagree with the OP because I think that this would been of those "exception" the years.

    The reason is that, by most accounts, this is a down year for top end QB & WR talent, so if I were a team that had a much bigger need at CB than at either tackle or DE, I'd have to take a really long look at the extremely physical, 6'1" 200+ lb guy, who just ran in the neighborhood of a 4.3 40 & has been coached up by the Alabama coaching staff over the last 3 years, while proving capable of being able to excel at almost everything he's been asked to do during that stretch of time, especially when there is no clear cut number 2 guy in this year's draft class.

    I agree that DB's have been neutralized, to a large extent, which obviously increases the risk of drafting one in the top 10 in most years. But when you see what the elite handful of lockdown CB's provide for a defense, it's hard to argue that the reward isn't equally as high if you land a guy withh kind of potential & he develops into just that.

    All you have to do is look at the first half of the Patriots/Ravens AFC Championship Game, when both of the NE starting CB's were on the field, compared to the 2nd half when they weren't, to realize that there is still plenty of value in having solid CB's.

    A solid pass rush. Will always make a secondary better. It still starts with getting after the qb. Esp. with all these rules in place.

    New Member of The 247 Crew!

    1tide

  • Travis Reier said...

    Gotcha. Posts like the one to start the thread bring into question the overall reading comprehension skills of those aged 5 and older in our country. Haha!

    TR

    And bingo! Yahtzee!! Domino!! And for the ladies out there...Bunko!!!
    This post right here just nailed the everlasting gobstoppers of posts on BOL that drive most of us crazy. TR, bringing heat

    "That's what people know us as..ya understand!"

    HeHateMe

  • Since this thread is on the NFL, how they have changed the rules of the game, what positions carry the most value, and not Dee Milliner, there could have been a more appropriate title, like Thoughts On NFL Rules Affecting Positions....

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    The price of victory is high, but so are the rewards.

    IBELIEVE85

  • Top 10 Total Offense:

    New England
    New Orleans
    Detroit
    Denver
    Washington
    Dallas
    Houston
    Atlanta
    Tampa Bay
    Indianapolis

    Ask New Orleans where a great offense, but absolutely zero defense will get you. You can show statistics for great defenses that didnt make playoffs, and I can do the same with great offenses, but you have to have a combination of both. The Ravens had a middle of the road offense and defense, and they won the Super Bowl.

    signature image signature image signature image

    The price of victory is high, but so are the rewards.

    IBELIEVE85

  • IBELIEVE85 said...

    Top 10 Total Offense:

    New England New Orleans Detroit Denver Washington Dallas Houston Atlanta Tampa Bay Indianapolis

    Ask New Orleans where a great offense, but absolutely zero defense will get you. You can show statistics for great defenses that didnt make playoffs, and I can do the same with great offenses, but you have to have a combination of both. The Ravens had a middle of the road offense and defense, and they won the Super Bowl.

    You can't just look at season stats with playoff teams. The Ravens held the Colts to 9 and the Pats to 13 in the playoffs, and held their own with Denver (held PM to under 300 and picked him twice). So looking solely at the Ravens season stats on defense is a little misleading. They were a very good defense when they needed to be.

    But TR is right, I can't tell you who played corner for them after Ledarius Webb got hurt, but I have heard that Ed Reed is pretty good.

    Redwoodforest

  • IBELIEVE85 said...

    Since this thread is on the NFL, how they have changed the rules of the game, what positions carry the most value, and not Dee Milliner, there could have been a more appropriate title, like Thoughts On NFL Rules Affecting Positions....

    Well, regardless of what the thread is titled, the OP is describing a phenomena that simply isn't happening. In fact, you could make a claim the reverse is true. In 2008, the first corner went off the board with the 20th pick. In 2009, the 14th pick. 2010 and 2011 would both see a corner taken in the top 10, and 2012 saw two corners taken in the top 10. Data doesn't support the claim that the NFL doesn't currently value corners as high as they used to.

    bhiley77

  • RollBamaRoll said...

    FWIW I agree with your logic but I think that I disagree with the OP because I think that this would been of those "exception" the years.

    The reason is that, by most accounts, this is a down year for top end QB & WR talent, so if I were a team that had a much bigger need at CB than at either tackle or DE, I'd have to take a really long look at the extremely physical, 6'1" 200+ lb guy, who just ran in the neighborhood of a 4.3 40 & has been coached up by the Alabama coaching staff over the last 3 years, while proving capable of being able to excel at almost everything he's been asked to do during that stretch of time, especially when there is no clear cut number 2 guy in this year's draft class.

    I agree that DB's have been neutralized, to a large extent, which obviously increases the risk of drafting one in the top 10 in most years. But when you see what the elite handful of lockdown CB's provide for a defense, it's hard to argue that the reward isn't equally as high if you land a guy withh kind of potential & he develops into just that.

    All you have to do is look at the first half of the Patriots/Ravens AFC Championship Game, when both of the NE starting CB's were on the field, compared to the 2nd half when they weren't, to realize that there is still plenty of value in having solid CB's.

    I agree with your thoughts on it being a down year at QB and WR helping a guy like Milliner. Stated as much in this thread.

    Point taken on the Pats' second half against the Ravens, but how do you explain the Ravens winning the Super Bowl with second-team corners on the field? They're important, but not the critical piece they used to be.

    TR

    Travis Reier ●

  • Nomad36 said...

    Agree, if they breathe too hard on a WR it's a flag. Direction I'd take with defense is find a few CJ Mosely's to cover TE's and slot WR's from the LB position.

    And that's why I think CJ would've been the top LB in this draft. He's what the LB position is all about in the NFL these days. The most important player in the Ravens' pass defense: LB Dannell Ellerbe. And he's about to get PAID. BTW, he was an undrafted free agent coming out of UGA in 2009.

    TR

    Travis Reier ●

  • Travis Reier said...

    Point taken on the Pats' second half against the Ravens, but how do you explain the Ravens winning the Super Bowl with second-team corners on the field? They're important, but not the critical piece they used to be.

    TR

    Playing against a run-first option offense, perhaps?

    bhiley77

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